Tuesday, December 20, 2005

ENWorld on the Forge

God, I love reading people outside the Forge community talk about the Forge.

Here's a gem:
1. Some Forgites are arrogant jargon-spewers.
2. Some Forgites have worthwhile things to say about gaming.
3. Some Forgites are both.

Oh, even better, when eyebeams encapsulates the foundation of Forge thought in his "Gamers are bad at gaming" and definition of "fun" specifically as something that he, as a "commercial RPG writer," knows and the Forge does not.


At 6:18 PM, Blogger Nathan P. said...


Amusing, but also sad. I mean, the Forge really does have a lot to offer, even if you don't give two shits about theory. Like, reading the Publishing forum should be required for everyone trying to put out a game themselves, no matter how or why they designed it.

At 8:50 PM, Blogger Joshua BishopRoby said...

I just want to fall under Category Three.

At 6:09 AM, Blogger Ron Edwards said...

I'm a little puzzled as to why Malcolm calls me an "engineer." As it happens, I am an academic, as identified by another poster and "corrected" by Malcolm.

C'est la internet.

At 7:33 AM, Blogger Laura Bishop Roby said...

I kind of stopped reading here:

Originally Posted by Henry
I can only hope I'm reading "A theory rejected or a theory embraced -- either way it's a theory that influences" wrong -- because the way it reads, it's an absurd statement, and one that implies that "Even if you say I didn't influence you, the fact that i exist influenced you."

And just started skimming at that point. Because, yes, even if you claim I didn't influence you, you acknowledging the fact I even exist influences you. Hi, welcome to a little thing called Cartesian logic.

At 8:01 AM, Blogger joshua m. neff said...

I'm a little puzzled as to why Malcolm calls me an "engineer." As it happens, I am an academic, as identified by another poster and "corrected" by Malcolm.

Because he's nuts?

At 12:44 PM, Blogger Joshua BishopRoby said...

Ron, the best part is the total inaccuracies!

The other best part is the one-sided nature of their posts -- especially about the RPGnet thread, which Luke started knowing full well what chaos would happen, because he thought that was funny. Or they quote Clinton's sarcasm, but not the follow-up quote where he says, "Uh, guys, that was sarcasm."

At 2:22 PM, Blogger Ron Edwards said...

For my sins, I just read the nine pages of posts. At least it wasn't 40 like the RPG.net one, but on the other hand, it also lacked the open comedy that showed up there.

I ordinarily don't bitch about stuff like this. But you know, here on your blog, I think I gotta, just a little.

- what's this about me saying, if you don't play with a single Agenda, you "aren't gaming?"

- and the deal with no glossary or quick intro to the Big Model? Which are, you know, right there.

- some sort of multi-post oddity about the definition of Narrativism? Lost-Soul did his very best, but he was up against a deconstructionist who writes for White Wolf.

- and this biz about d20 "must be" picked on or dissed at the Forge? Talk about assuming one's victimhood for purposes of switching on resentment.

- fascinating definition of academics, too, especially citing Creationists as an example. (I had to stop reading for a while after that one.)

I concede that the term "Big Model" is pretty funny. I guess they didn't realize that I always use the rudest/most-amusing term I can, when I think of it in time? I still want pervy/vanilla, but reluctantly gave them up under fire during the Infamous Five.

I'm not even going to talk about post-structuralism, how smart someone's supposed to be because he's "working toward his Ph.D.," civilized discourse, and argumentative logic. It was like watching kids play firemen: "No, you gotta wear the plastic hat right! You gotta make the water-sound when you point the hose!"

And as I used to say about a fellow who hated the Forge even more than Justin or Malcolm, refuting him was like shooting fish in a barrel - (a) too easy and (b) cruel, because the fish don't understand it.

Sigh. This is my only and last post on the topic, though. Life's too short. Thanks for listening, and I think I will go write up the Ronnies now.

At 8:24 PM, Blogger Bradley "Brand" Robins said...

The funny thing about Malcom is that he isn't a bad guy IRL. He's even reasonable and willing to listen.

No, seriously. I mean it. I spent 6 hours with him in a booth at the Game Expo in August, and we talked about all sorts of shit. He was a fun guy.

The weird thing is he is also, believe it, a smart guy. But when I said things to him that were straight up Forge theory he'd agree with me. But when I said it was Forge theory, he'd disagree. There have been times when I've told him, "I don't know what you think you're fighting against, because you are not disagreeing with Vincent/Ron/whoever... you're just saying "its up high" rather than "it is high up."

I have never seen so clear an example of Focault's power discourse in action. Even RPG.net's dialectic pales in comparison.

I dunno. Next time I talk to him maybe I'll be able to figure out what is eating his innards. He'd be a worthwhile guy to have around if he'd get past the hate thing.

At 8:25 PM, Blogger Bradley "Brand" Robins said...


I tease you about being Cthulhu and shit all the time, but man, after that flame-fest I have to say you are entitled to some bitching time.

I thought Josh and I had it bad when we destroyed Tribe 8....

At 12:54 PM, Blogger Joshua BishopRoby said...

Nah, we only had like maybe a dozen very vocal guys who hated us. The Forge has got legions. ;)

At 6:34 PM, Blogger Troy_Costisick said...


I postulate that people hate the Forge more out of fear than intelectual disagreement. They are afraid it will tell them that they aren't real gamers, they aren't playing right, or they don't belong in the hobby. Nothing could be further from the truth.

They take a few misquoted lines of Forgites trying to hash out ideas as they are conceived on the forums and then tar everyone as an elitist. Ron, Clinton, and many others have defended everyone's right to publish/design games, question, and comment on those forums. At no time has the Forge had a policy of "there are those who aren't worthy." That's the problem we get with someone who only takes a glance at the Forge.

Ron has said it many times, the theory and even the discussion techniques we use in Design and Actual Play took years to develop. They are still a work in progress. To take a single comment and hang someone (or a group of people) on it is absurd.




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